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	<title>Comments on: A Reply from a Romery Person</title>
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	<link>http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2009/10/a-reply-from-a-romery-person/</link>
	<description>Reformation meets Rome</description>
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		<title>By: Bryan Cross</title>
		<link>http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2009/10/a-reply-from-a-romery-person/comment-page-2/#comment-21644</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryan Cross</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Oct 2011 14:45:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.calledtocommunion.com/?p=3037#comment-21644</guid>
		<description>David, (re: #50)

Yes, sanctifying grace is the same thing as &quot;habitual grace.&quot; For those who have attained the age of reason, sanctifying grace can be in us only as a result of our cooperation; but babies receive sanctifying grace in baptism. Yes, actual grace always precedes each growth in sanctification. But actual grace is resistible; see &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2009/08/is-the-catholic-church-semi-pelagian/comment-page-1/#comment-2295&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;comment #12&lt;/a&gt; in the &quot;Is the Catholic Church Semi-Pelagian?&quot; thread.

In the peace of Christ,

- Bryan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David, (re: #50)</p>
<p>Yes, sanctifying grace is the same thing as &#8220;habitual grace.&#8221; For those who have attained the age of reason, sanctifying grace can be in us only as a result of our cooperation; but babies receive sanctifying grace in baptism. Yes, actual grace always precedes each growth in sanctification. But actual grace is resistible; see <a href="http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2009/08/is-the-catholic-church-semi-pelagian/comment-page-1/#comment-2295" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">comment #12</a> in the &#8220;Is the Catholic Church Semi-Pelagian?&#8221; thread.</p>
<p>In the peace of Christ,</p>
<p>- Bryan</p>
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		<title>By: David Meyer</title>
		<link>http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2009/10/a-reply-from-a-romery-person/comment-page-1/#comment-21642</link>
		<dc:creator>David Meyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Oct 2011 14:16:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.calledtocommunion.com/?p=3037#comment-21642</guid>
		<description>I think the distinction between actual grace and sanctifying grace is making more sense to me. This is a very helpful post and comments.

Having said that, I have a couple questions for Bryan or someone here.

Given the Catechism:

&quot;2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God&#039;s call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God&#039;s interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification. 
2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, &quot;since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:&quot;50 &quot;

So is sanctifying grace the same thing as &quot;habitual grace&quot;, or is one a category of the other?

Also, is it correct to say that sanctifying grace is something that can only be in us as a result our cooperation? (But of course we are not the source of it, I get that) 
But if actual grace is an intervention, (which to my understanding equates with an efficient amout of intervening/actual grace for our will to be moved), then is a growth in sanctifying grace dependent on our will apart from that same intervening grace? Or does actual grace always precede each growth in sanctifying grace?
I hope that makes sense. 

David M.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the distinction between actual grace and sanctifying grace is making more sense to me. This is a very helpful post and comments.</p>
<p>Having said that, I have a couple questions for Bryan or someone here.</p>
<p>Given the Catechism:</p>
<p>&#8220;2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God&#8217;s call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God&#8217;s interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.<br />
2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, &#8220;since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:&#8221;50 &#8221;</p>
<p>So is sanctifying grace the same thing as &#8220;habitual grace&#8221;, or is one a category of the other?</p>
<p>Also, is it correct to say that sanctifying grace is something that can only be in us as a result our cooperation? (But of course we are not the source of it, I get that)<br />
But if actual grace is an intervention, (which to my understanding equates with an efficient amout of intervening/actual grace for our will to be moved), then is a growth in sanctifying grace dependent on our will apart from that same intervening grace? Or does actual grace always precede each growth in sanctifying grace?<br />
I hope that makes sense. </p>
<p>David M.</p>
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		<title>By: Bryan Cross</title>
		<link>http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2009/10/a-reply-from-a-romery-person/comment-page-1/#comment-4327</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryan Cross</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 04:37:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.calledtocommunion.com/?p=3037#comment-4327</guid>
		<description>JohnO,

&lt;i&gt;Do I understand you to be saying that without actual grace we cannot come to obtain sanctifying grace?&lt;/i&gt;

Correct.

&lt;i&gt;And that the Catholic understanding of semi-Pelagianism is to state that one can obtain sanctifying grace without God’s intervention (either through actual grace or sanctifying grace). Therefore, does semi-Pelagianism destroy the distinction altogether?&lt;/i&gt;

Semi-Pelagianism claims that we (without grace) make the first move, then God gives grace in response. Pelagianism denies that God needs to give grace at all, in order for us to be saved. Pelagianism denies the necessity of grace for salvation. Semi-Pelagianism denies the necessary of prevenient grace (i.e. operative actual grace, where God acts upon us, without us), but does not deny the need for grace for salvation.

In the peace of Christ,

- Bryan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JohnO,</p>
<p><i>Do I understand you to be saying that without actual grace we cannot come to obtain sanctifying grace?</i></p>
<p>Correct.</p>
<p><i>And that the Catholic understanding of semi-Pelagianism is to state that one can obtain sanctifying grace without God’s intervention (either through actual grace or sanctifying grace). Therefore, does semi-Pelagianism destroy the distinction altogether?</i></p>
<p>Semi-Pelagianism claims that we (without grace) make the first move, then God gives grace in response. Pelagianism denies that God needs to give grace at all, in order for us to be saved. Pelagianism denies the necessity of grace for salvation. Semi-Pelagianism denies the necessary of prevenient grace (i.e. operative actual grace, where God acts upon us, without us), but does not deny the need for grace for salvation.</p>
<p>In the peace of Christ,</p>
<p>- Bryan</p>
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		<title>By: Jamie Donald</title>
		<link>http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2009/10/a-reply-from-a-romery-person/comment-page-1/#comment-4317</link>
		<dc:creator>Jamie Donald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 03:13:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.calledtocommunion.com/?p=3037#comment-4317</guid>
		<description>Kenny and Bryan,

Thanks for your comments.  Guess I&#039;ve just talked to with some Protestants who have thought more about the process.  (Or it&#039;s equally likely that I misunderstood them as well!)

As far as the Forensic Justification topic goes, I note a particular distinction.   If I&#039;m reading you correctly, the Catholic thought process is that the declaration and gift of Grace in the forms of faith, hope, and agape  - the metaphysical change of the person&#039;s soul -  occur &lt;i&gt;&lt;b&gt;simultaneously&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/i&gt;.  But my understanding of the majority of Protestantism is that the declaration - the divine favor in your terms - precedes and causes the justification.  When I speak of Forensic Justification, I am thinking of the latter, not the former. 

Of course, my understanding of Protestants on this point could be mistaken.  But I am trying to understand them.

I am surprised that you repeated the topic of Grace  as participation in the divine nature.  Like you, I&#039;ve never seen Protestants talk this way.  I didn&#039;t think that my previous question even came close to implying that they did.

Again, thank you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kenny and Bryan,</p>
<p>Thanks for your comments.  Guess I&#8217;ve just talked to with some Protestants who have thought more about the process.  (Or it&#8217;s equally likely that I misunderstood them as well!)</p>
<p>As far as the Forensic Justification topic goes, I note a particular distinction.   If I&#8217;m reading you correctly, the Catholic thought process is that the declaration and gift of Grace in the forms of faith, hope, and agape  &#8211; the metaphysical change of the person&#8217;s soul &#8211;  occur <i><b>simultaneously</b></i>.  But my understanding of the majority of Protestantism is that the declaration &#8211; the divine favor in your terms &#8211; precedes and causes the justification.  When I speak of Forensic Justification, I am thinking of the latter, not the former. </p>
<p>Of course, my understanding of Protestants on this point could be mistaken.  But I am trying to understand them.</p>
<p>I am surprised that you repeated the topic of Grace  as participation in the divine nature.  Like you, I&#8217;ve never seen Protestants talk this way.  I didn&#8217;t think that my previous question even came close to implying that they did.</p>
<p>Again, thank you.</p>
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		<title>By: JohnO</title>
		<link>http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2009/10/a-reply-from-a-romery-person/comment-page-1/#comment-4314</link>
		<dc:creator>JohnO</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 01:46:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.calledtocommunion.com/?p=3037#comment-4314</guid>
		<description>Bryan,

Thank you so very much for this post, it was incredibly enlightening.  I think you give a very fair, dare I even say full, summary of the different approaches Catholic and Protestant thinking brings to bear on the text.  I had one question:

&quot;Without actual grace, we cannot turn and prepare ourselves, to faith and calling upon God. To claim that we could do so without actual grace would be at least semi-Pelagianism.&quot;

Do I understand you to be saying that without actual grace we cannot come to obtain sanctifying grace?  And that the Catholic understanding of semi-Pelagianism is to state that one can obtain sanctifying grace without God&#039;s intervention (either through actual grace or sanctifying grace).  Therefore, does semi-Pelagianism destroy the distinction altogether?

Thanks again.

-JohnO</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bryan,</p>
<p>Thank you so very much for this post, it was incredibly enlightening.  I think you give a very fair, dare I even say full, summary of the different approaches Catholic and Protestant thinking brings to bear on the text.  I had one question:</p>
<p>&#8220;Without actual grace, we cannot turn and prepare ourselves, to faith and calling upon God. To claim that we could do so without actual grace would be at least semi-Pelagianism.&#8221;</p>
<p>Do I understand you to be saying that without actual grace we cannot come to obtain sanctifying grace?  And that the Catholic understanding of semi-Pelagianism is to state that one can obtain sanctifying grace without God&#8217;s intervention (either through actual grace or sanctifying grace).  Therefore, does semi-Pelagianism destroy the distinction altogether?</p>
<p>Thanks again.</p>
<p>-JohnO</p>
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		<title>By: Bryan Cross</title>
		<link>http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2009/10/a-reply-from-a-romery-person/comment-page-1/#comment-4309</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryan Cross</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 00:40:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.calledtocommunion.com/?p=3037#comment-4309</guid>
		<description>Jamie,

I think that what Kenny said (in #45) is quite right. Protestants tend not to go into the metaphysics of grace. So among Protestants grace is most commonly treated as divine favor. Reformed theologians will note that the term &#039;grace&#039; also refers to blessings of God, and to the working (i.e. operations) of the Holy Spirit within us, or to the Holy Spirit Himself. I have never seen a Reformed theologian describe grace as participation in the divine nature.  Berkhof (p. 429) quotes Smeaton as saying:

&lt;blockquote&gt;The term &lt;i&gt;grace&lt;/i&gt;, which in Augustine&#039;s acceptation intimated the inward exercise of love, awakened by the operations of the Holy Spirit (Rom 5:5), and which in the scholastic theology had come to denote a quality of the soul, or the inner endowments, and infused habits of faith, love, and hope, was now taken in the more scriptural and wider sense for the free, the efficacious &lt;i&gt;favour&lt;/i&gt; which is in the divine mind.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I should point out that Catholics do not reject forensic justification. In Catholic soteriology, God declares because He effects it. It is not a legal fiction, but a legal truth, because our hearts have been given &lt;i&gt;agape&lt;/i&gt; at that very instant. The Protestant position (if I can speak of it as &lt;b&gt;one&lt;/b&gt; position), is &lt;i&gt;simul iustus et peccator&lt;/i&gt;, without a distinction between mortal and venial sin, i.e. without a distinction between those sins that destroy/remove &lt;i&gt;agape&lt;/i&gt; from the soul, and those that do not.

In the peace of Christ,

- Bryan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jamie,</p>
<p>I think that what Kenny said (in #45) is quite right. Protestants tend not to go into the metaphysics of grace. So among Protestants grace is most commonly treated as divine favor. Reformed theologians will note that the term &#8216;grace&#8217; also refers to blessings of God, and to the working (i.e. operations) of the Holy Spirit within us, or to the Holy Spirit Himself. I have never seen a Reformed theologian describe grace as participation in the divine nature.  Berkhof (p. 429) quotes Smeaton as saying:</p>
<blockquote><p>The term <i>grace</i>, which in Augustine&#8217;s acceptation intimated the inward exercise of love, awakened by the operations of the Holy Spirit (Rom 5:5), and which in the scholastic theology had come to denote a quality of the soul, or the inner endowments, and infused habits of faith, love, and hope, was now taken in the more scriptural and wider sense for the free, the efficacious <i>favour</i> which is in the divine mind.</p></blockquote>
<p>I should point out that Catholics do not reject forensic justification. In Catholic soteriology, God declares because He effects it. It is not a legal fiction, but a legal truth, because our hearts have been given <i>agape</i> at that very instant. The Protestant position (if I can speak of it as <b>one</b> position), is <i>simul iustus et peccator</i>, without a distinction between mortal and venial sin, i.e. without a distinction between those sins that destroy/remove <i>agape</i> from the soul, and those that do not.</p>
<p>In the peace of Christ,</p>
<p>- Bryan</p>
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		<title>By: Kenny</title>
		<link>http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2009/10/a-reply-from-a-romery-person/comment-page-1/#comment-4287</link>
		<dc:creator>Kenny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 00:40:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.calledtocommunion.com/?p=3037#comment-4287</guid>
		<description>Jamie - Just for clarification, I was saying that Protestants &lt;i&gt;should&lt;/i&gt; believe these things, in addition to accepting their forensic conception of justification. (Many Protestants, especially the Reformed, take the legal language to be the literal account and everything else to be a metaphor for that. However, I am not the only Protestant who objects to this.) In my experience (being a Protestant myself, and having been in Protestant churches all my life), Protestants virtually never talk about more metaphysical aspects of grace/salvation, but will usually agree with them if asked. (In fact, I am leading a small group from my (PCA) church in a study of Athanasius&#039; &quot;On the Incarnation&quot; right now, and I think the more metaphysical account of the Fall and salvation has been everyone&#039;s favorite part.) As far as I am aware of/can remember, the major Protestant confessions are similarly silent. I do think that at least some Protestant theologians have a more full-blooded conception of grace than is suggested here but I (again, being a Protestant myself) don&#039;t think that Bryan&#039;s characterization is unfair.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jamie &#8211; Just for clarification, I was saying that Protestants <i>should</i> believe these things, in addition to accepting their forensic conception of justification. (Many Protestants, especially the Reformed, take the legal language to be the literal account and everything else to be a metaphor for that. However, I am not the only Protestant who objects to this.) In my experience (being a Protestant myself, and having been in Protestant churches all my life), Protestants virtually never talk about more metaphysical aspects of grace/salvation, but will usually agree with them if asked. (In fact, I am leading a small group from my (PCA) church in a study of Athanasius&#8217; &#8220;On the Incarnation&#8221; right now, and I think the more metaphysical account of the Fall and salvation has been everyone&#8217;s favorite part.) As far as I am aware of/can remember, the major Protestant confessions are similarly silent. I do think that at least some Protestant theologians have a more full-blooded conception of grace than is suggested here but I (again, being a Protestant myself) don&#8217;t think that Bryan&#8217;s characterization is unfair.</p>
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		<title>By: Jamie Donald</title>
		<link>http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2009/10/a-reply-from-a-romery-person/comment-page-1/#comment-4284</link>
		<dc:creator>Jamie Donald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 21:30:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.calledtocommunion.com/?p=3037#comment-4284</guid>
		<description>Bryan,

Thank you for this excellent article!

If I may ask, could you please flesh out something you wrote.

&lt;b&gt;Here at this point is a crucial distinction between Catholic and Protestant soteriology. In Protestant theology grace is primarily understood as divine favor, that is, &lt;i&gt;an attitude or stance by God toward us&lt;/i&gt;. In Catholic soteriology, by contrast, grace is not merely divine favor, but is also and primarily the gift of “participation in the divine nature” (2 Peter 1:4) by which we have the supernatural virtues of faith, hope, and agape.&lt;/b&gt;

My area of concern is where I&#039;ve added the emphasis to your quote; namely that Protestants see Grace as &lt;i&gt;an attitude or stance by God toward us.&lt;/i&gt;  I think you are aiming at the concept of Forensic Justification, and as a Catholic I do not subscribe to that concept.  But I would be afraid that I were creating a strawman by putting it this way.  My understanding of Protestant theology is that they are somewhat more nuanced in this regard.  I understand them to see Grace as much more than a change in attitude on God&#039;s part.  Rather, it is a declaration by God, with the understanding that this declaration has the same force as the creation declarations spoken by God in Genesis.  

This would make Grace a creative force which, by God&#039;s declaration, creates the &quot;new man&quot; in Christ.  Then from this new creation by the power of Grace, Protestants believe we receive the gift of faith.  They would then claim that from faith flows hope and agape.  I think this was the point that Kenny was trying to make in his questions.  (However, I should not speak for him!)

At any rate, did you really mean that the Protestant concept of Grace is that simple, or did I misread you?

Again, excellent article!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bryan,</p>
<p>Thank you for this excellent article!</p>
<p>If I may ask, could you please flesh out something you wrote.</p>
<p><b>Here at this point is a crucial distinction between Catholic and Protestant soteriology. In Protestant theology grace is primarily understood as divine favor, that is, <i>an attitude or stance by God toward us</i>. In Catholic soteriology, by contrast, grace is not merely divine favor, but is also and primarily the gift of “participation in the divine nature” (2 Peter 1:4) by which we have the supernatural virtues of faith, hope, and agape.</b></p>
<p>My area of concern is where I&#8217;ve added the emphasis to your quote; namely that Protestants see Grace as <i>an attitude or stance by God toward us.</i>  I think you are aiming at the concept of Forensic Justification, and as a Catholic I do not subscribe to that concept.  But I would be afraid that I were creating a strawman by putting it this way.  My understanding of Protestant theology is that they are somewhat more nuanced in this regard.  I understand them to see Grace as much more than a change in attitude on God&#8217;s part.  Rather, it is a declaration by God, with the understanding that this declaration has the same force as the creation declarations spoken by God in Genesis.  </p>
<p>This would make Grace a creative force which, by God&#8217;s declaration, creates the &#8220;new man&#8221; in Christ.  Then from this new creation by the power of Grace, Protestants believe we receive the gift of faith.  They would then claim that from faith flows hope and agape.  I think this was the point that Kenny was trying to make in his questions.  (However, I should not speak for him!)</p>
<p>At any rate, did you really mean that the Protestant concept of Grace is that simple, or did I misread you?</p>
<p>Again, excellent article!</p>
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		<title>By: JoanieD</title>
		<link>http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2009/10/a-reply-from-a-romery-person/comment-page-1/#comment-4281</link>
		<dc:creator>JoanieD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 19:41:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.calledtocommunion.com/?p=3037#comment-4281</guid>
		<description>Oops, sorry, Bryan.   I didn&#039;t copy and paste back far enough into your comment that I quoted from.  I am just full of mistakes today!  I better quit now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops, sorry, Bryan.   I didn&#8217;t copy and paste back far enough into your comment that I quoted from.  I am just full of mistakes today!  I better quit now.</p>
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		<title>By: Bryan Cross</title>
		<link>http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2009/10/a-reply-from-a-romery-person/comment-page-1/#comment-4278</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryan Cross</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 18:32:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.calledtocommunion.com/?p=3037#comment-4278</guid>
		<description>Joanie,

Just to be clear, I did not say that, &quot;the sacrament of baptism can come to us even prior to our reception of the sacrament of baptism.&quot; We cannot receive the sacrament of baptism before receiving the sacrament of baptism. Here&#039;s what I said:

&lt;blockquote&gt; the grace [and faith and hope and agape] that comes to us through the sacrament of baptism can come to us even prior to our reception of the sacrament of baptism.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Notice the difference. We can receive the grace the comes through the sacrament, prior to receiving the sacrament itself.

Then you asked:

&lt;blockquote&gt;would it then follow that the Church would teach that if parents wanted to baptize an infant but didn’t have a chance to, then we could consider that the child was baptized “by intention” or something similar?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

No, that conclusion would not follow. The teaching of the Church regarding children who die without baptism is the one found in the paragraph from the Catechism, which I quoted in comment #27 above. Our faith needs to rest at that point, in what the Church has given us. There is no basis to say anything further on this subject at this point (in time); it would be mere speculation.

In the peace of Christ,

- Bryan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joanie,</p>
<p>Just to be clear, I did not say that, &#8220;the sacrament of baptism can come to us even prior to our reception of the sacrament of baptism.&#8221; We cannot receive the sacrament of baptism before receiving the sacrament of baptism. Here&#8217;s what I said:</p>
<blockquote><p> the grace [and faith and hope and agape] that comes to us through the sacrament of baptism can come to us even prior to our reception of the sacrament of baptism.</p></blockquote>
<p>Notice the difference. We can receive the grace the comes through the sacrament, prior to receiving the sacrament itself.</p>
<p>Then you asked:</p>
<blockquote><p>would it then follow that the Church would teach that if parents wanted to baptize an infant but didn’t have a chance to, then we could consider that the child was baptized “by intention” or something similar?</p></blockquote>
<p>No, that conclusion would not follow. The teaching of the Church regarding children who die without baptism is the one found in the paragraph from the Catechism, which I quoted in comment #27 above. Our faith needs to rest at that point, in what the Church has given us. There is no basis to say anything further on this subject at this point (in time); it would be mere speculation.</p>
<p>In the peace of Christ,</p>
<p>- Bryan</p>
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