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	<title>Comments on: Looking Images in the Eye</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2009/05/looking-images-in-the-eye/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2009/05/looking-images-in-the-eye/</link>
	<description>Reformation meets Rome</description>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Deane</title>
		<link>http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2009/05/looking-images-in-the-eye/comment-page-1/#comment-812</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Deane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 May 2009 02:28:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.calledtocommunion.com/?p=987#comment-812</guid>
		<description>Thanks to everyone for your comments. I had one other thought on images of God, which you can take or leave.

All of us are surrounded by images of God, whether we are iconoclasts or not, for we are all made as images of God. In being human we are always in the presence of an image, unless we close our eyes to who we are and who are friends (and enemies) are.

Those images are the objects of most modern day idolatry, even going beyond reality TV about singers who are idolized in the USA.

As such, even the simplest Reformed church building is full of images of God. What we do with those images is of utmost importance: will we only be amazed at the beauty or folly of man, or will we see what is transcendent, the invisible God who has made us and sustains us?

Blessings,
Jonathan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks to everyone for your comments. I had one other thought on images of God, which you can take or leave.</p>
<p>All of us are surrounded by images of God, whether we are iconoclasts or not, for we are all made as images of God. In being human we are always in the presence of an image, unless we close our eyes to who we are and who are friends (and enemies) are.</p>
<p>Those images are the objects of most modern day idolatry, even going beyond reality TV about singers who are idolized in the USA.</p>
<p>As such, even the simplest Reformed church building is full of images of God. What we do with those images is of utmost importance: will we only be amazed at the beauty or folly of man, or will we see what is transcendent, the invisible God who has made us and sustains us?</p>
<p>Blessings,<br />
Jonathan</p>
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		<title>By: Louisiana Catholic</title>
		<link>http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2009/05/looking-images-in-the-eye/comment-page-1/#comment-811</link>
		<dc:creator>Louisiana Catholic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 May 2009 02:09:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.calledtocommunion.com/?p=987#comment-811</guid>
		<description>Tim and Matt:

To Tim, your welcome, it was an excellent article and to Matt, thanks for the welcome.

Regards</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim and Matt:</p>
<p>To Tim, your welcome, it was an excellent article and to Matt, thanks for the welcome.</p>
<p>Regards</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Yonke</title>
		<link>http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2009/05/looking-images-in-the-eye/comment-page-1/#comment-810</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Yonke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 May 2009 01:51:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.calledtocommunion.com/?p=987#comment-810</guid>
		<description>Welcome Louisiana Catholic!

I thought I recognized your handle from Imonk&#039;s site. I hope you&#039;ll stick around and keep commenting!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Welcome Louisiana Catholic!</p>
<p>I thought I recognized your handle from Imonk&#8217;s site. I hope you&#8217;ll stick around and keep commenting!</p>
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		<title>By: Tim A. Troutman</title>
		<link>http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2009/05/looking-images-in-the-eye/comment-page-1/#comment-809</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim A. Troutman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 May 2009 00:34:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.calledtocommunion.com/?p=987#comment-809</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the link and the kind words.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the link and the kind words.</p>
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		<title>By: Louisiana Catholic</title>
		<link>http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2009/05/looking-images-in-the-eye/comment-page-1/#comment-808</link>
		<dc:creator>Louisiana Catholic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 May 2009 00:30:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.calledtocommunion.com/?p=987#comment-808</guid>
		<description>Here is an excellent article on images from a 1986 audience of Pope John Paul II, of blessed memory.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19860409en.html

I think from reading this lecture by Pope John Paul II, we see that the image that God wanted was man, who was created in the Divine Image of God (c.f. Gen 1:27). THus, man left to his own imagination would fall into heresy or idolatary, thus in the commandments in Exodus 20, for example, God commands us not to make images, which can be interpreted as do not make images outside of God&#039;s parameters as later we see God commanding man to make images as Exodus 25:18-19; Numbers 21: 8-9 [bronze serpent, which in and of itself does not have power, but using typology, is a prefigurement of Christ {c.f. John 3:14}], and 1 Kings 6, we see the construction of the temple, which had images, etc.

Through the incarnation, the Word was made flesh and Christ took on our human nature, which ties the creation of man in God&#039;s image to the incarnation of Christ, or perhaps a better way of stating it through his incarnation, Christ has revealed the face of God and shown man&#039;s true nature and destiny. St. Paul could say that &quot;He [Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of creation&quot; (c.f.  Col 1:15). So the image of man back in Genesis is now the image that God uses to reveal himself in the incarnation of Christ. 

Christ, through the Church, as the body of Christ,   and the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15) reflecting on the theological signifiance of the incarnation dogmatically rejected iconoclasticism of the 7th century and condemned it at the 7th Council of Nicea (787AD). Thus, Icons, sacred art, images, can be used in Liturgy, etc and venerated. All of these (i.e. Icons, sacred art, rosaries, etc) can loosly fall under &quot;sacramentals&quot;, which while related to a sacrament, or distinct from them, in that they point to God&#039;s Grace, but do not give man Grace as Christ gives us through the Sacraments/Divine Mysteries, etc.

Anyway, I love the blog and I  linked one of your articles [Tim&#039; Troutmans article on Sola Deo Gloria] on a Protestant blog [Internet Monk, who is very cordial and gracious with Catholics]

Pax et bonum</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is an excellent article on images from a 1986 audience of Pope John Paul II, of blessed memory.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19860409en.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19860409en.html</a></p>
<p>I think from reading this lecture by Pope John Paul II, we see that the image that God wanted was man, who was created in the Divine Image of God (c.f. Gen 1:27). THus, man left to his own imagination would fall into heresy or idolatary, thus in the commandments in Exodus 20, for example, God commands us not to make images, which can be interpreted as do not make images outside of God&#8217;s parameters as later we see God commanding man to make images as Exodus 25:18-19; Numbers 21: 8-9 [bronze serpent, which in and of itself does not have power, but using typology, is a prefigurement of Christ {c.f. John 3:14}], and 1 Kings 6, we see the construction of the temple, which had images, etc.</p>
<p>Through the incarnation, the Word was made flesh and Christ took on our human nature, which ties the creation of man in God&#8217;s image to the incarnation of Christ, or perhaps a better way of stating it through his incarnation, Christ has revealed the face of God and shown man&#8217;s true nature and destiny. St. Paul could say that &#8220;He [Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of creation&#8221; (c.f.  Col 1:15). So the image of man back in Genesis is now the image that God uses to reveal himself in the incarnation of Christ. </p>
<p>Christ, through the Church, as the body of Christ,   and the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15) reflecting on the theological signifiance of the incarnation dogmatically rejected iconoclasticism of the 7th century and condemned it at the 7th Council of Nicea (787AD). Thus, Icons, sacred art, images, can be used in Liturgy, etc and venerated. All of these (i.e. Icons, sacred art, rosaries, etc) can loosly fall under &#8220;sacramentals&#8221;, which while related to a sacrament, or distinct from them, in that they point to God&#8217;s Grace, but do not give man Grace as Christ gives us through the Sacraments/Divine Mysteries, etc.</p>
<p>Anyway, I love the blog and I  linked one of your articles [Tim' Troutmans article on Sola Deo Gloria] on a Protestant blog [Internet Monk, who is very cordial and gracious with Catholics]</p>
<p>Pax et bonum</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Yonke</title>
		<link>http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2009/05/looking-images-in-the-eye/comment-page-1/#comment-807</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Yonke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 May 2009 22:56:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.calledtocommunion.com/?p=987#comment-807</guid>
		<description>Roma,

Bacon would have a great point, if Catholics treated images as if they were God. But of course we don&#039;t. Of course images are a poor substitute for God, but think of the analogy someone cited above of a picture of a loved one.

A picture of my wife is of course a poor substitute for my wife if I&#039;m expecting it to do all the things my wife does. But if I&#039;m away on business for a few days, a picture of my has a completely appropriate purpose different from the purpose of my actual wife. 

Indeed, if I expected a picture of my wife to mind the children, cook dinner and look after the house, it would be a poor substitute, but when set to the purpose of reminding me of my wife in her absence, it does just fine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Roma,</p>
<p>Bacon would have a great point, if Catholics treated images as if they were God. But of course we don&#8217;t. Of course images are a poor substitute for God, but think of the analogy someone cited above of a picture of a loved one.</p>
<p>A picture of my wife is of course a poor substitute for my wife if I&#8217;m expecting it to do all the things my wife does. But if I&#8217;m away on business for a few days, a picture of my has a completely appropriate purpose different from the purpose of my actual wife. </p>
<p>Indeed, if I expected a picture of my wife to mind the children, cook dinner and look after the house, it would be a poor substitute, but when set to the purpose of reminding me of my wife in her absence, it does just fine.</p>
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		<title>By: roma victor</title>
		<link>http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2009/05/looking-images-in-the-eye/comment-page-1/#comment-806</link>
		<dc:creator>roma victor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 May 2009 22:30:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.calledtocommunion.com/?p=987#comment-806</guid>
		<description>Keeping to the topic then, perhaps if I might suggest, with respect to the matter of images &amp; the traditional Protestant view, Lord Chancellor Francis Bacon had once conveyed the thought that, on a seemingly more philosophical point (at least, to me), such images are but poor substitutes for the actual reality (i.e., the divine).  This, to him, is the crime which Romanists had committed in his view -- purpotedly substituting the reality of the divine with something so inferior.

Perhaps those more expert might elaborate and provide further clarification on the matter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Keeping to the topic then, perhaps if I might suggest, with respect to the matter of images &amp; the traditional Protestant view, Lord Chancellor Francis Bacon had once conveyed the thought that, on a seemingly more philosophical point (at least, to me), such images are but poor substitutes for the actual reality (i.e., the divine).  This, to him, is the crime which Romanists had committed in his view &#8212; purpotedly substituting the reality of the divine with something so inferior.</p>
<p>Perhaps those more expert might elaborate and provide further clarification on the matter.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim A. Troutman</title>
		<link>http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2009/05/looking-images-in-the-eye/comment-page-1/#comment-805</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim A. Troutman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 May 2009 22:03:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.calledtocommunion.com/?p=987#comment-805</guid>
		<description>Roma &amp; Ilow, just a friendly reminder - let&#039;s try and keep to the topic if possible.  These kinds of comments (true or false) don&#039;t tend to lead to appreciation for or understanding of the Catholic faith - they lead to driving people away who otherwise might be interested in it.   Thanks for understanding.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Roma &amp; Ilow, just a friendly reminder &#8211; let&#8217;s try and keep to the topic if possible.  These kinds of comments (true or false) don&#8217;t tend to lead to appreciation for or understanding of the Catholic faith &#8211; they lead to driving people away who otherwise might be interested in it.   Thanks for understanding.</p>
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		<title>By: roma victor</title>
		<link>http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2009/05/looking-images-in-the-eye/comment-page-1/#comment-804</link>
		<dc:creator>roma victor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 May 2009 21:27:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.calledtocommunion.com/?p=987#comment-804</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;In fact, in light of St. Francis of Assisi, I am curious, to the point of utter dismay (truly–”dismay”) about the entire Reformation.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

VERY GOOD POINT!

If you ever read any biographies (not actual spiritual literature, but the more dry ones) concerning Francis or even Anthony of Padua, their times were replete with Church corruption and notorious sin committed by certain clergy -- even worse than those observed during the times of the Reformation.

Yet, even as worse as those times were, instead of producing a Martin Luther, you got saints that worked within the Church and by their devotion and humility ultimately saved it.

I wonder what would&#039;ve been if Luther had actually conquered his demons that made him scream the anguished cries of &quot;&lt;i&gt;Non Sum&lt;/i&gt;&quot; that ineluctably led to Reformation of a more deformed kind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>In fact, in light of St. Francis of Assisi, I am curious, to the point of utter dismay (truly–”dismay”) about the entire Reformation.</p></blockquote>
<p>VERY GOOD POINT!</p>
<p>If you ever read any biographies (not actual spiritual literature, but the more dry ones) concerning Francis or even Anthony of Padua, their times were replete with Church corruption and notorious sin committed by certain clergy &#8212; even worse than those observed during the times of the Reformation.</p>
<p>Yet, even as worse as those times were, instead of producing a Martin Luther, you got saints that worked within the Church and by their devotion and humility ultimately saved it.</p>
<p>I wonder what would&#8217;ve been if Luther had actually conquered his demons that made him scream the anguished cries of &#8220;<i>Non Sum</i>&#8221; that ineluctably led to Reformation of a more deformed kind.</p>
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		<title>By: Ilow Roque</title>
		<link>http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2009/05/looking-images-in-the-eye/comment-page-1/#comment-803</link>
		<dc:creator>Ilow Roque</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 May 2009 20:53:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.calledtocommunion.com/?p=987#comment-803</guid>
		<description>Barrett,

Thank you for your comment which I take in the spirit of charity in which it was given.  Perhaps a point of clarification might help, since we have not yet had the opportunity to meet:  you should know that my comments are meant neither as self-righteous Catholic indignations nor as ad hominem attacks, and if my words sometimes belie my purely collegial motives, you have my sincere apology.  In fact, in light of St. Francis of Assisi, I am curious, to the point of utter dismay (truly--&quot;dismay&quot;) about the entire Reformation.  And being steeped in history, I would argue that motives are interesting to consider.    Where I get stuck, what I do not understand, is how &quot;high-minded&quot;  (a friend&#039;s expression) people of good will can argue against the unity of our Holy Church (the Body of Christ) with a variety of banal and outdated philosophies that are clearly &quot;centrifugal&quot; in nature, that in themselves, lead away from the worship of our LORD.  Now you are all far more educated than I on the subject at hand, so please accept my comments as being from one, who like you, shares your interest in reasoned debate and simply loves our LORD; I am merely a Catholic Christian who considers nothing trivial when it comes to that which, in my view, seriously inhibits my brothers and sisters in Christ from sharing sacramentally the body, blood, soul and divinity of our LORD in His  Holy Roman Catholic Church.  This is my faith.  And for this I do not apologize.  Yet, I am reminded of a book by Isaiah Berlin, &quot;The Fox and the Hedgehog.&quot;  Perhaps you are familiar with it, but it sums up nicely my thoughts on the stone that toppled the wagon even if it does not precisely address the arguments the children were having in the wagon at the time that it was toppled.  The point is, the wagon is overturned (See excerpt below):

&quot;THERE is a line among the fragments of the Greek poet Archilochus which says:&#039; The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing&#039;.1 Scholars have differed about the correct interpetation of these dark words, which may mean no more than that the fox, for all his cunning, is defeated by the hedgehog&#039;s one defence.  But, taken figuratively, the words can be made to yield a sense in which they mark one of the deepest differences which divide writers and thinkers, and, it may be, human beings in general. For there exists a great chasm between those, on one side, who relate everything to a single central vision, one system less or more coherent or articulate, in terms of which they understand, think and feel--a single, universal, organizing principle in terms of which alone all that they are and say has significance--and, on the other side, those who pursue many ends, often unrelated and even contradictory, connected, if at all, only in some de facto way, for some psychological or physiological cause, related by no moral or aesthetic principle; these last lead lives, perform acts, and entertain ideas that are centrifugal rather than centripetal, their thought is scattered or diffused, moving on many levels, seizing upon the essence of a vast variety of experiences and objects for what they are in themselves, without, consciously or unconsciously, seeking to fit them into, or exclude them from, any one unchanging, all-embracing, sometimes self-contradictory and incomplete, at times fanatical, unitary inner vision. The first kind of intellectual and artistic personality belongs to the hedgehogs, the second to the foxes; and without insisting on a rigid classification, we may, without too much fear of contradiction, say that, in this sense, Dante belongs to the first category, Shakespeare to the second; Plato, Lucretius, Pascal, Hegel, Dostoevsky, Nietzsche, Ibsen, Proust are, in varying degrees, hedge­ hogs; Herodotus, Aristotle, Montaigne, Erasmus, Molière, Goethe, Pushkin, Balzac, Joyce are foxes.&quot; (Berlin, Isaiah: The Fox and the Hedgehog, 1953)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Barrett,</p>
<p>Thank you for your comment which I take in the spirit of charity in which it was given.  Perhaps a point of clarification might help, since we have not yet had the opportunity to meet:  you should know that my comments are meant neither as self-righteous Catholic indignations nor as ad hominem attacks, and if my words sometimes belie my purely collegial motives, you have my sincere apology.  In fact, in light of St. Francis of Assisi, I am curious, to the point of utter dismay (truly&#8211;&#8221;dismay&#8221;) about the entire Reformation.  And being steeped in history, I would argue that motives are interesting to consider.    Where I get stuck, what I do not understand, is how &#8220;high-minded&#8221;  (a friend&#8217;s expression) people of good will can argue against the unity of our Holy Church (the Body of Christ) with a variety of banal and outdated philosophies that are clearly &#8220;centrifugal&#8221; in nature, that in themselves, lead away from the worship of our LORD.  Now you are all far more educated than I on the subject at hand, so please accept my comments as being from one, who like you, shares your interest in reasoned debate and simply loves our LORD; I am merely a Catholic Christian who considers nothing trivial when it comes to that which, in my view, seriously inhibits my brothers and sisters in Christ from sharing sacramentally the body, blood, soul and divinity of our LORD in His  Holy Roman Catholic Church.  This is my faith.  And for this I do not apologize.  Yet, I am reminded of a book by Isaiah Berlin, &#8220;The Fox and the Hedgehog.&#8221;  Perhaps you are familiar with it, but it sums up nicely my thoughts on the stone that toppled the wagon even if it does not precisely address the arguments the children were having in the wagon at the time that it was toppled.  The point is, the wagon is overturned (See excerpt below):</p>
<p>&#8220;THERE is a line among the fragments of the Greek poet Archilochus which says:&#8217; The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing&#8217;.1 Scholars have differed about the correct interpetation of these dark words, which may mean no more than that the fox, for all his cunning, is defeated by the hedgehog&#8217;s one defence.  But, taken figuratively, the words can be made to yield a sense in which they mark one of the deepest differences which divide writers and thinkers, and, it may be, human beings in general. For there exists a great chasm between those, on one side, who relate everything to a single central vision, one system less or more coherent or articulate, in terms of which they understand, think and feel&#8211;a single, universal, organizing principle in terms of which alone all that they are and say has significance&#8211;and, on the other side, those who pursue many ends, often unrelated and even contradictory, connected, if at all, only in some de facto way, for some psychological or physiological cause, related by no moral or aesthetic principle; these last lead lives, perform acts, and entertain ideas that are centrifugal rather than centripetal, their thought is scattered or diffused, moving on many levels, seizing upon the essence of a vast variety of experiences and objects for what they are in themselves, without, consciously or unconsciously, seeking to fit them into, or exclude them from, any one unchanging, all-embracing, sometimes self-contradictory and incomplete, at times fanatical, unitary inner vision. The first kind of intellectual and artistic personality belongs to the hedgehogs, the second to the foxes; and without insisting on a rigid classification, we may, without too much fear of contradiction, say that, in this sense, Dante belongs to the first category, Shakespeare to the second; Plato, Lucretius, Pascal, Hegel, Dostoevsky, Nietzsche, Ibsen, Proust are, in varying degrees, hedge­ hogs; Herodotus, Aristotle, Montaigne, Erasmus, Molière, Goethe, Pushkin, Balzac, Joyce are foxes.&#8221; (Berlin, Isaiah: The Fox and the Hedgehog, 1953)</p>
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